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May 26th, 2005
My Messy Bedroom
Write a comment on this article !
Read members’ comments [16]

Sleeping patterns
Josey Vogels
 


Playing the numbers game (right: Wilt Chamberlain)

I'll never forget the headline: "34 years old! 40 lovers! You do the math!"

At first I was horrified to have my sexual history broadcast from the pages of a major Canadian newspaper. Then I laughed when I realized why the reporter who interviewed me for the story kept asking me how many people I'd slept with.

Out of sheer pressure, I had cobbled a number together for him from my rather sorry excuse for a memory.

Maybe I was being naive (it was my first book tour after all) but I didn't see it as a big deal.

Apparently, he did.

That was six years ago, and while I've definitely added to the grand total, I still have no idea exactly how many people I've slept with.

And, while I'm not nearly as naive, I still don't see what the big deal is.

Neither does my current guy. He has no idea how many people I've slept with. He's never asked and I've never offered.

Nor do I care how many came before me.

I am his best, of course.

But more importantly, I am his current.

And that should be all that matters.

Shouldn't it?

Okay, he should know the state of my sexual health, which he does.

And sure, we've talked about what we have and haven't done, and what we'd like to still do, but we feel no need to share the details of these experiences.

Of course, failing the "don't ask, don't tell" approach, most people lie.

"I always tell my partners a dozen because I think that's a comfortable number for them to hear," says Wunnerful in a recent debate on this very subject in the My
Messy Bedroom online community (www.joseyvogels.com). He admits the actual number is about 50, give or take five.

And while he says he rarely asks his partners their numbers, preferring to keep the discussion to what they like and don't like, he admits he'd get a little freaked if he found out his partner had slept with 250 lovers.

I think I'd be more intrigued than freaked. Who has the resources, never mind the time, to sleep with that many people?

Betternottell likes Wunnerful's idea of creating an "acceptable" number and sticking to it. But while she's not ashamed of her "healthy" sex life, she'd simply rather not ask, and not tell. "I don't consider it to be a truly valid indication of how someone would or would not behave in a relationship with me," she writes. "Sure, history repeats itself, but the person's current actions speak louder than any words that flow from their lips about their history."

If only she'd been coaching me back when that reporter was grilling me.

But while both men and women often lie about their numbers - either overestimating or underestimating depending on the situation and your level of insecurities, as Wunnerful so rightly states in the debate - there is no question that a person's sexual history is judged differently depending on their sex.

"I think that men have a harder time dealing with a girlfriend's higher number, because, let's face it, it's still harder for guys to get laid, and most of us men are envious of that," offers Outdoor Lover, whose current girlfriend has at least 75 lovers to his 10.

Kind of ironic, given that men are perceived to be more interested in sex than women in our culture.

But that's part of the problem. It's not so much that men can't get laid as easily as women, but that men who get easily laid are simply fulfilling their biological duty, while women who get easily laid make us uncomfortable.

Which explains why someone like Wilt Chamberlain becomes a legend for having slept with thousands of women while a woman's descriptions of her lifetime of sexual adventures in The Sexual Life of Catherine M. are called "a cry for help" in a review in Esquire magazine.

And that's another reason why I'd rather not say anything. I don't want to have to drag the cultural baggage my number carries into bed with me. And I'd rather cuddle the guy who's inspired my most recent bed notch than coddle his ego.

I'm with Ubik on this one.

"People who insist on the question should never be trusted with the answer (nor with anything else, relationship-wise)," he adds to the debate. "And what's the point in telling someone who's not interested in the question?"

Exactly.

Of course, people aren't just worried about having too high a number. I regularly get letters from people concerned about their lack of experience because they've had so few partners. They fear new lovers will laugh them out of bed or something.

I'm sorry, but a person's level of experience can't be entirely credited to the number of people they've practised with. Some people are quick learners. Others have bedded hundreds and still can't give a decent hand job.

Then there are those like Mozart, who attempt to turn it into a question of medical necessity. "I'm a blood donor, so I would be compelled to ask for a potential partner's history for at least the previous 12 months," he insists.

You don't need to know how many people a person has slept with. You need to know if he or she has been tested. Different question.

And as Matt says, "Why not just use a condom?"

Which is not to say that one shouldn't discuss a partner's sexual health, as I mentioned above. But, again, that has little to do with how many people he or she has slept with.

No matter how many diseased partners your lover has had, you only need to know which STIs he or she has contracted from them, not which person he got it from and in what position they were in, or what room of the house they were doing it in when he got it.

Like I said: Don't ask. Don't tell. You do the math.


 
 



Write your comment on this article!


Messy math & the lovers that time forgot  
 
"I still don't see what the big deal is. Neither does my current guy. He has no idea how many people I've slept with. He's never asked and I've never offered."--Josey Vogels on the issue of the exact number of her previous lovers.
<<>>
Now, I'm just shooting this one out there but I'm guessing that if he's your boyfriend and he's at all familiar with what you do for a living he doesn't really have to ask you. He can just google your old columns if he's that inclined to find out. Most guys don't have that advantage--not that we'd really like to know. It's an ego thing. By the by, while we're on the subject why it matters, the total number of former lovers that is, it's because with each lover you increase the odds of catching something. Some diseases take years to fully manifest and there's plenty of data to suggest that most lovers aren't totally honest about their past history or the lever of safe sex they've participated in previously. A lot of it is about going on faith but if you rig the numbers against you eventually faith runs out and so does your luck. You can think that you've been safe but you can never be sure about the person you're with or the people they were with.

Pedro Eggers
{3 votes}
July 2nd, 2005

Stop, Look, Listen. . . and Think.  
 
Regardless of what is portrayed on TV, the movies, the media, etc., when it comes to real love, respect for your partner and his or her feelings are paramount. That is what love is all about. Disclosure of one's sexual health is, of course, something that must be shared; you must have the inner integrity and courage to be honest about this, even if it might lead to rejection. At least you will have done the proper -- and loving -- thing. But, I think, anyone who asks the number of lovers or the details of the other's sexual history isn't really interested in the now of this whole new person and this whole new relationship and the fantastic mysteries that are there to be delved into, nurtured, and brought to life. The reality is that most of us come to our relationships with a past; we are who we are because of our past experiences. But another -- and overriding -- reality is that, for many of us (who will admit it), we want our love and our hearts to be honored and cherished as something new, different and special, as we want to do for our partner. To bring up or be asked about former lovers serves no purpose in creating the type of love most of us really want and need. To share the bedroom with the specter of former lovers may appeal to some, but not to those who are wired differently. Only you can know who you are and what you want, and don't feel ashamed if what you find is of a more intimate nature.
In the past (which is right around the corner, I think), it was said that "a gentleman never asks and a lady never tells." Think about the reason this was penned to begin with. Think about the words "gentleman" and "lady." They are distinguishing words.

John Clifford
{1 vote}
June 2nd, 2005

Math for kids  
 
If Josie was 12 years old today, she'd already be feeling pressure to be sexually active, a full decade or two before she'd even consider marriage. With even 1 "shtupp" per year, that adds up to quite a total. And it's the norm.
Kids jump into the sexual arena because they are not old enough to consider the consequences of their actions, and because they believe "it's no big thing". Since our consumer society emphasizes quantity over quality, kids sleep around (including "friends with privileges") in order to fit in. Yet, once you've hit Sex Partner Number 20 or so, it's got to occur to you that more is not always better.
Though Ms. Vogels addresses the issue of STDs, (which I'm sure people lie about as easily as their numbers of partners) she fails to mention the emotional and psychological toll of numerous encounters. No big thing?

Stephanie Ein
{1 vote}
June 1st, 2005

'Lover' implies love  
 
Doesn't the word 'lover' imply love? Otherwise, I think Ms. Vogels might've chosen another word, like 'fuck buddy.' Maybe it's not a lifetime commitment, but I think that having a number of lovers can be just as deep or special as having one serious relationship. You still have to find something about those people that interests you, unless you will fuck anything that moves, and most of us are at least a little more complex than that. And that was sort of her point: the numbers aren't important because it's about how you feel for those people, not how many people you can bag. While a high number may initially be shocking, who's to say it doesn't mean she has a greater capacity for love? Sharing yourself with another person, whether physically or emotionally, takes courage. The more people you share yourself with, the greater the risks - whether these are STDs or the possibility of a broken heart. It could just be about sex, but I get the impression that Josey at least enjoyed the company of her lovers, otherwise she would've filed them under a different category.

Laura Roberts
{2 votes}
June 1st, 2005

Numbers, Schmumbers  
 
Asking for a number, when it comes to sexual partners, is asking for trouble. We are all prone to an emotional response to the answer we get, especially if a kind of love is involved between the ask-er and the answer-er. If the number is lower than yours, you can feel anything from nothing, to proud, to better-than, to dirty to etc. If the number is higher than yours, you can feel anything from nothing, to proud, to better-than, to not-good-enough, to etc. No matter what, divulging such a personal matter is not black and white. And it can come back to bite you in the ass; used as sanctimonious artillery or whatnot. Even lying about your number is bad. It shouldn't matter beyond the here and now, to the degree that 'quantity doesn't mean quality' and all the other cliches.
Personally, I have had more issues with people lying about their status of sexual experience period; as in whether they are active or not, no matter to what degree. Any relationship that is based on a lie or a set of lies is doomed from the get-go. Whether a friendship or something more intimate. Sex is sex is sex. Every human is a sexual being, no matter how much we are in denial (especially when it concerns our parents). To know or not to know someones tally of sexual partners is a thin line you have to be pretty sure of yourself to cross. It like they say, 'curiousity killed the cat', in some cases, kills the libido/lust.

Larissa Dutil
{16 votes}
May 28th, 2005

Math for the beginners.  
 
None of the numbers crunched and calculated, formulated and estimated, matters.
A culture obsessed by numbers reflects a culture that has chosen to reduce all events into a capitalistic urge-merge. meaning, quite simply, events such as going to a movie becomes in part, about seeing the 'number one' movie that everyone goes to see.
In the bedroom, the numbers become even more distorted and misaligned. for wilt 'the silt' chamberlain, his sensual appetites created the 'numbers', and not the other way around. few, many, not enough, too much, just enough are all rather relative sensually speaking. there are people who find a single partner's appetite far too overwhelming (regardless of gender, i want to add), and there are people who find their single partner's lack of appetite rather crushing, if not demoralising.
Because a bunch of mind-melded individuals have made such and such a movie 'the number one' movie, doesn't mean the movie itself holds anything meaningful, let alone profound. sensuality has nothing to do with how many, but has to do with a mind-frame that inspires an individual to enter into realms that are both vital and innate. my own partner has had four lovers prior to me, and the experiences she had with them continues to inspire her and myself. because as an individual given to his obsessions, i have found the sensual appetites of women utterly fascinating. i do not weary in hearing my lover tell me about her former four lovers. how she felt, what she wanted to feel, what they did to make her feel alive, and how i could have easily enjoyed watching her with them.
But then again, i have never felt this 'national urge' to feel insecure about my sensuality. that i have chosen to trust my sensuality, and in trusting my sensuality i have avoided the easy pratfalls and traps of feeling insecure because my lover and former lovers had lovers that they enjoyed. and that their pleasures echoes and lingers far beyond all of 'the numbers'.

Gary Womac
{31 votes}
May 26th, 2005

Unacceptable  
 
THere are things in life you have to learn by experience, trail and error. You could say the art of having sex could be one of those things. It is not stipulated anywhere how many men you should encounter before actually settling down. In the old days you weren't suppose to sleep with anybody until you married . I guess that didn't work either because people loved each other but were unable to satisfy each others sexual appetites and that usually caused many problems in the relationship. But in all this we must have a sense of moral behavior. A person who drinks to much becomes an alcoholic , a person who takes to many drugs is a drug attic. So a person who has too much sex with too many partners wether for love or simplely sex is clearly over the acceptable amount and therefore considered unstable to hold a long term realationship. It is not a question of being a man or a woman its how far you have gone. This woman is only 34 years old and she has had 40 partners and of coarse she will loose this one , when he reads her interview or when somone will make a smart remark to him about his girlfriends puplicised sex life. If he doesn't care right now its because he is in it for the moment and so he doesn't really care. Long term relationships require alot of commitment and respect for your partner and so , this little lady would have had a better chance if she kept her big mouth shut .

Maria Cecillia Silva

June 1st, 2005

Many Men Prefer Virgins  
 
Having sex is not the same as making love which involves a much deeper relationship on many levels. There is nothing wrong with a young couple who married as virgins and have just celebrated their fiftieth wedding anniversary. They are so committed to each other that they have become inseparable. I feel sorry for those men and women who go from one fleeting relationship to the next never really having the time to delve into the inner mysteries of their partner. I don't see much difference in this lifestyle compared to hiring prostitutes or escorts except for the price. The danger to health is always lurking in the background and the pressure to indulge one's fantasies can lead to risky behaviour.

Stephen Talko
{4 votes}
May 31st, 2005

This is ridiculous!  
 
Who cares how many lovers one had...
Some are more important than others. Some are one nightstand. Some become friends. Some (most) disappear. Some stay longer than others (7 years!)... It depends on so many things.
I've never counted. I don't really care. But this year since we're on the topic, 2, so far. Is that good, bad, evil, terrific, disgusting? I don't see the point. And why would you want to know? To make you feel better, miserable or what?
Of course, love is important. But it's not that easy to find, to achieve and to keep. And sex with another human being feels good, most of the time! So why not! This is 2005 people... Get on with it.

Christine Théoret
{3 votes}
May 30th, 2005

Don't Kiss and Tell  
 
I remember my high school days when it was a big deal if you were having sex...and people would always ask how many people you had been with....but a few years later and much more experience, I can see how immature it was. It's one of those things that it just shouldn't matter AND no matter how much experience you have, you might still suck in bed... I just think it really shouldn't matter and you shouldn't have to ask or answer that question....However, you should always ask and make sure the person gets tested cuz you don't want to get stuck with any weird STD's.
As for the comment about love...love and sex are 2 totally different things; you can have one without the other...but it's always good when the 2 are put together.

Andrea Cassidy
{1 vote}
May 30th, 2005

josey get a grip!!!  
 
can someone let Josey know that we are getting fed up of hearing about her sexual escapades and her vibrator fixations.
why cant she put more emphasis on other peoples sexual problems and try to help them out...ie answer readers questions on sexual issues, as opposed to rehashing the same stories over and over concerning her own sexual life.
shouldn't her column be about helping people, instead of self therapy for the author?

Alberto Olivera
{3 votes}
May 27th, 2005

Not ashamed  
 
I'm 24 and i've had my share of partners... and my actual boyfriend knows the grand total. I'm healty, never contracted any STDs, always used protection in the past so why would there be a problem. I think people that want to know how many lovers you've had in the past and then freak out if the amount is to high for them are just plain insecure, not knowing if they'll be good enough or just average. Just another type of complexion, and complexed people are just not fun!!!!

Jessica Kelly
{3 votes}
May 27th, 2005

A sticky situation isn't always a bad one  
 
I think being concerned about one's sexual history is normal, however different people should be able to make different judgements. Not knowing how many people someone slept with could be a good thing, that way people won't be so interested in judging each other so quickly or at all! I would be curious to know how many partners my partner slept with only if I was planning on staying with them for a long period of time. I think after being with someone for a long period of time you kind of unwind & go free once your not with them anymore, as if you were stuck in a tight package & now you're free, wanting to sleep with more & more people, because you weren't getting satisfied in the first place. If this is the case, then I don't think people would really care or have any time to answer someone's question about how many sexual partner's they've had because they wouldn't be able to keep track. There would be no limit, they would just keep having more & more. I would just say better to double & triple those latex's, just to make sure nothing spreads. Sex is sex.

Aryan Musacchio
{2 votes}
May 27th, 2005

You push; you lose...  
 
If I started dating a new guy who asks me to tell him how many guys I had slept with. First I would say that I am not comfortable giving out numbers, even though they are not that impressive; it's still my personal history that I would like to keep to myself. Some people can be relentless, so if push came to shove I would lie and give a made up number just to get past the discussion. The lie could even be in fact more than I had actually slept with; just because I don't feel that I should be pressed to give a factual number. The actual number of sexual partners is very personal and is just for me to know. The new relationship would not last much past that barrier, because the person just didn't know me well enough to leave the personal subject alone. If that person had understood who I was then the subject would never had been brought up; or, at least let go of when they knew how I felt about the subject. It would not be a question that I would feel I needed to know about. The relationship should be regarded as started something fresh and new, not dwelling on how many you bedded in the past.

Pamela Wright
{6 votes}
May 26th, 2005

40 years old and loving it we presume!  
 
So let me see if i get this right Josey 40 divided by 34 would equal 1.18 a year. Now 6 years later means 7 more added to the the x12 you tell them you sleep with. Then you have to take the 75 to 10 ratio and multiply it to you because you in effect sleep with all of his partners as well. Grand total of (32275.20)WOW oh My!! now I understand the don't ask don't tell method it would end it , before it started!

Michael Levine
{5 votes}
May 26th, 2005

Too Much of a Good Thing!  
 
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but after reading this article I'm feeling quite shocked and disgusted. Whatever happened to ''love'' between the two people? That word was not mentioned at all in the article. And since when did the number of partners you have had become a contest or something to brag about? To me, making love is something very special that is reserved for that special person. I highly doubt that a one-night stand can be anything more than quick gratification. That you can get from inanimate objects and you won't have to worry about a disease.

Heath Abram
{8 votes}
May 26th, 2005


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